Passing people on the slopes

No intention of starting a flame war, just interested to hear what everyone thinks...
Sometimes I`ll come up on those skiers that randomly go back and forth (in groups of course!) across the entire slope. If there`s enough of them and they`re being really bad about it, I find it sort of difficult to go by without being close to at least one of them. Sometimes you throw in a couple of boarders side sloping the whole way too, and it`s a real cluster fuck. I typically try to stay on the sides (better snow there anyway) but that doesn`t always work.
Anyway, I do my best to get by cleanly, but if I`m close then I`ll yell "Passing on the left!" or whatever. Since these are inevitably nervous beginners, half the time they`re scared shitless and immediatly fall down. Don`t know if that makes me a jerk or what... Though I would think it`s better than having a collision.
BTW, I`m usually not doing this on the runout to the bottom lift or anything. Way too many times it`s on a slope that is obviously way too advanced for the clueless people (skiers and boarders) on it. Not that I`m all good or anything (cause I`m not!), but when I was learning the basics I stayed where I belonged! The other thing is why don`t more people maintain SA (situational awareness) on the slopes?? If I`m going to suddenly turn wide or stop, I damn sure look over my shoulder and see what`s happening. I realize those downhill have right of way, but part of the skiers/riders code should emphasize SA!! It has definitely kept me out of my share of collisions.

Situational Awareness... there`s a term 90% of the people on the ski slopes probably couldn`t define. This is just my opinion.. but it is as everything in life... especially true of drivers nowadays.. most people are just plain idiots. They are stuck in this little bubble and really aren`t concerned with anything outside of that bubble. However, you, as someone uphill from them, must give them the right of way and it is your responsibility to avoid them, within reason I`d say, of course there are times you just can`t avoid these idiots and it`s their fault. Sometimes this is easy.. sometimes collisions occur.. I`ve had my fair share of minor collisions with both skiiers & boarders.. One cause I see as a major issue is those skiiers & boarders who primarily like to go straight, and those who carve the slope from side to side (more skiiers are doing this with the shaped skis). Inevitably there is going to be a collision somewhere as paths cross.
Alot of slopes are getting crowded nowadays.. and personally I think there needs to be more education of skiiers & snowboarders on how to ride consciously and considerately. Even though I am a snowboarder I am willing to admit that alot of snowboarders are notorious for stopping in the middle of a run, and in some cases even sitting down in the middle of a run. Some skiiers do this too though (the stopping in the middle, not the sitting down part). Doing this is very dangerous.. I`ve literally had to bunny hop (or wipe out to avoid) people who were sitting over the crest of a small hill.. totally out of sight from someone coming down & over the crest. If you`re reading this and you`ve done this.. PLEASE, DO NOT STOP OR SIT in the middle of a run, or anywhere that you can`t see the people up the hill.. it means you are in a blind spot to them. You put yourself in danger of a major collision! Always stop and sit on the sides of the runs where you can see people coming down the hill.
As far as announcing your position.. it`s probably a good thing.. I usually do it on catwalks, and sometimes when I notice that someone in front of me is just absolutely oblivous to their surroundings and I`m forced to get near them. I usually try to stay away from them in the first place.
Anyway.. just my opinion.

superior waxing skills, the length/width of the board or my aerodynamic build, but I seem to buzz past most people on these things. Of course, if you brake and stop, you could end up walking, so I try to time their zig zags so that I pass on the opposite side, but sometimes it just doesn`t work out. That`s when I shout where I am. Not had a collision or made someone fall... so far!
I agree with some of what TomTom said, in that some people are in total ignorant bliss about what`s going on around them.

Yelling to somebody to tell them what side you are about to overtake them on does not satisfy this obligation.
The only time I do this is on catwalks where the people in front have stopped (or almost stopped) and I am about to flash past quite close to them because of the narrowness of the catwalk.
This is a subject I feel quite strongly about because I was hit twice from behind last season, and had many near misses.
I`m particularly vulnerable due to my riding style. I ride an alpine board and tend to make wide sweeping turns at a fairly high speed. I get overtaken by people travelling half my speed, as they are skidding down the fall line, whereas I am carving across it. My turns often travel *up* the hill for a short distance.
From the perspective of the average skier or snowboarder who is more or less following the fall-line, I am somebody who suddenly appears out of nowhere at high speed right in front of them, or even worse, I am magically riding *up* the hill straight into "their" path.
You talk about situational awareness. It`s a good thing, but its not the downhill people who need it, it`s the people who are doing the overtaking. To avoid colliding into me, you need to be watching the whole width of the slope, not just the small section of it that you are planning on using.
The extreme case is doing 360s, which I was trying to master last season. I`m not talking about 360s in the air, or spinning the board around flat on the snow, but a genuinely carved 360 that creates a carved circle of approx 12 metres diameter. Are you prepared for a downhill "skier" who is suddenly travelling straight back up the hill for 12 metres at speed?

to be watching for people riding back up the hill (!) then I think I may go find me a new winter pastime.
While you have every right to ride how you want (you`ve paid your ticket like the rest of us) don`t you see that style of riding being equally as obstructive as plonking yourself down over the crest of a rise ? Still if the show fits...what hills do you ride so I can avoid ? Regards Scott

Announcing your presence is courteous and effective. A simple, "on your left, on your right", works well. I know I appreciate it when being passed. It`s a trail rule on most cycling trails.
I`d agree with Scott that Alpine riders and skiers who traverse the entire trail too fast are more at fault.

in 15 years or so. I wonder why that might be? Perhaps: (1) I don`t rely on the rules to protect me. (2) I`m constantly aware of what`s behind me. It`s easy to look if you`re doing wide carves and have a square stance. (3) I don`t put in big carves on crowded slopes. Relying on [a selected subset] of the rules is a good way to get hit, which I think the previous poster has demonstrated adequately. Look after yourself.
I have the same issue as the chap who started the thread. Snakes of beginners doing L to R traverses across red or even harder runs can be inconsiderate if they block the whole slope. There`s nothing you can do about it. Either you have to wait until they`re down, or you have to pass them. I don`t see anything in the rule book which says I can`t pass people, so I do it. If I think it necessary (eg if they`re obviously unaware of my presence) I may yell to ensure that they will not be scared when I pass.
Think of it like walking down a crowded pavement ("sidewalk" in the US I think). Most of us don`t need a rule book to do that without injury.

being involved in a collision is much more important then following a set of rules. Yes, you should all ways yield to downhill traffic, but it doesn`t end there. I also ride an alpine board from time to time and would never lay it out without knowing what`s going on above me. Knowing I have the right of way is a small consolation if I break bones, get a concussion, etc...there was a thread about this some years back and it looked at the downhill skier rule. There were actually some people(mostly skiers, it was crossposted to rsa) who insisted if someone passes you and comes to a screeching stop 5 ft. in front of you, you are at fault if you hit them. If your only concerned with winning a court case from you wheelchair, follow the rules, rigidly. If you want to stay healthy and ride another day, think outside the box.

If you are carving wide turns then it is your onus to make sure you arent getting in everyone elses way...Just like being on a `freeway`..If you are cruising along at the posted speed(say 100kmh) and you are merging onto the highway, then you cut someone else off in another lane as you are merging, then its your fault.....Just cos you are "in front` of them doesnt release you of all obligation to others behind you...This may be a bad analogy but......i think you see where Im going with this...For one you are going against the general flow of traffic.... I had a severe eye injury about 12 years ago and Ive now permanently lost site in that eye....So you had better beleive that Im shoulder checking to make sure i dont get clipped by someone coming up from behind me....And like you said " you were hit 2 times last year"...That right there outta tell you that there might be something wrong with you method.....I ride front foot forward and have no site in my left eye..and i still havent had any collisions with people...well not entirely true...Going thru the terrain park at Lake Louise, i hit a huge jump and just about to land when i noticed some jack-ass sitting right in the middle...My spotter had been beside it for 5 minutes and STILL hadnt seem this bozo....I only slightly clipped him as i did an evasive maneuver on my arse....The other time someone was snow plowing on there ass outta control right into me... rant mode off.....

First off I board.
I tend to announce "on your left, on your right" only when passing skiers.
When I`ve done this with Boarders the tendency is for them to look in that direction and as a result they turn towards my path.
Give people space and make every effort to anticipate where the downhill folks are likely to go.

I agree too about announcing your presence, that`s what I do. Just letting people know your are behind them and coming up fast really helps.
I also agree that it`s pretty much always the uphill person`s job to avoid the collision as he/she can see the situation. People who go too fast are usually at fault (of course what is "too fast" is debatable).
I remember one instance where I riding along at the edge of a trail inside a gully and I hear a shout a big explosion of powder from behind and to the left off along the gully wall (filled with trees). It was some guy flying through the trees onto the trail. He then blamed me for cutting him off and not looking behind and above me to see if some idiot like him was coming down. I`m like "You`re a retard and you suck." I know there was a morale to this story but I forgot it (something about immature riders) ;p Oh yea... LOOK before you decide to jump out of nowhere onto a trail, if I can do it, so can you.
Maybe I`m just venting at that guy... yes YOU, the person with the bright orange jacket who was snowboarding off of Sentinel Bowl in Kirkwood last March! =]Rag dolling down the slopes and bouncing off two saplings.

perhaps consider backcountry boarding (away from anybody else). I agree that those downhill have the right-of-way, and it makes sense. But IMO the smart rider maintains an understanding of what`s going on behind him/her and adjusts their line as req`d.
Quite often things will clear up and you`ll be on your own, so you can just let it rip. Other times you have to throw the anchor out and evade some dullard blindly merging towards you. I`ve not had this problem with boarders really (though I`m sure it could happen), but I had a handful of times last year where I would have to change my line hard to avoid an idiot skier bombing towards me from a side trail or something (when I was on a downhill). Like another poster said, maybe the fact that you`ve been hit twice in one season should mean something to you...
I use situational awareness all the time when riding my sportbike. If I just assumed the cars around me were always paying attention and following the rules, I would`ve been dead many years ago. Maybe it`s a bad analogy, but maybe not when you consider what a 55 mph skier could do to you.

voice an opinion, however non-confrontationally, seems to be an invitation to some of the regulars here to flame. I find that I`ve started to proceed any opinion I dare to express here with a disclaimer like yours above just to try to pre-empt flame attacks from the juvenille know-it-alls who sometimes haunt this group.
But I can relate to the issue you raise, it`s a good question... a really nice line and you`re really in a groove, nothing can be more frustrating than having your stride broken and being thrown off-balance by some beginner zig-zagging across the entire slope, hogging the whole run.
It`s tempting to succumb to "run-rage" and barge right by them risking disaster, or to get angry. But I try to remember that I too was once a beginner who had to zig-zag all the way back and forth across the slope, and try to cut them some slack. They paid just as much for their lift ticket as I did, and they have just as much a right to learn to snowboard as I do, even if they do get in my way, and I take whatever evasive action is necessary, even if I have to veer off the piste or come to a complete stop. After all, I am the more experienced border so I have a greater responsibility to ride in control and not jeapordize less capable riders. That`s also why you`re better able to maintain "SA"--the beginners have to concentrate so much more on not crashing that they don`t have as much attention span as you left over for SA.
The best thing to do is stop when the slope is being monopolized by zig-zaggers interfering with the line you want, wait until there`s a lull in traffic, then proceed. I also stay to the outer edges of a run, not only because there`s less traffic but also because I prefer the softer snow that accumulates there because it is scraped to the side from the main artery of traffic and less disturbed off the beaten path.
Other than that you just have to use "SA", like you say, keep an eye on the zig-zaggers below you, and time it so you pass them when they`re ziggin away from your line, not zagging towards it.

group (more than 2) I stop or slow down and yell at them to get the fuck out of the middle of the road! 80% of the time its a flock of skiiers, almost always at a crest of a hill. This is especially bad behavior on weekends as you end up forcing large volume of traffic off to narrower gaps on the side - a bad thing for the majority of skiiers/riders who only go out a few days a year.
I also try to shout out `on left` or right if I`m going by somebody fairly close. I try to do this with enough room so that if they do freak and wipe I can avoid them. But frankly, it seems that short of an air horn most people are oblivious.
I would also suggest, in addition to keeping an eye on uphill traffic, that you try to stay aware of your blind side, especially where two trails run parallel. I got clipped pretty bad at Kirkwood by a skiier crossing onto my trail from my blind side. He was hellbent on going across 2 runs to make a path thru some trees to a *3rd* run. Arg!

and at high speed, somebody skidding more or less down the hill is *not* going to overtake you, especially at half your speed. You must be riding insanely wide slopes, in which case both of you should be able to deal with it. on a packed slope on Saturday at 10am is as much your fault if you get hit as the beginner who cant avoid you. One has to ride as conditions warrant, not as we would like them to be. Share the slope.

back and forth, something that is mostly a skiier thing as beginning boarders usually traverse the whole way, turn..(falldown), then go back. That is fairly well predictable behavior and you can easily adapt to it. Even the bitter alpine guy who carves with the hordes can be dealt with. The random stuff is what scares me, and I will generally either chill till they clear out or just slow up. Most of the time this is happening on a green slope or where a blue/green merge and I shouldn`t really be flying by to begin with. Moving to blacks and double blues will usually lessen this problem

the park are going real slow across your line that leads to a nice jump. I see that a lot at smaller east coast resorts. What a pain.
Two groups seem to do this...beginners, who feel that down slope skiers always have the right of way. When we know, that in a park you have to look up and make sure you`re not crossing a "runway" for a hit. The uphill boarder can`t merely go around you, if you cross the path when he was already in motion, you just screwed up that person`s entire run. He may well have just hiked or planned the entire run around the jump the newbie just fouled.
Second group that seems to do this is experienced borders who gather right on top of a jump. Usually they are focusing on a completely different obstacle (rail, box, whatever) and ignore the fact that others are trying to hit the jump they`ve grown tired of. I see this quite a bit. Its more annoying because they should know better.
All right...I`m done with my bithin` for today.

intervals from the adjacent slope! Probably ducking a rope on the way.
Usually this is just by the exit transition of a table, and you`re often on the approach or even worse in the air.
Sometimes they make this worse by panicking and stopping where they are! hehe, sometimes your spotters just aren`t enough.

all this moaning and groaning is great....but unless you have snowboarded in Japan for any length of time, then you can`t have any understanding for crowding on the slopes...or of them for the matter....and as for lack of awareness, well that is what Japanese people do best...on the road, in a car, on a train, walking down the street....most are completely feckless about who or what is around them...... so..... what the hell can I do about that, screaming "on the left!!!!!!!" won`t work....and as I live here...I can`t head anywhere else easily!!!!!!

Wow, that`s pretty insane. Well, I feel for you I guess.
What`s it like riding in Japan? Just wondering about things like resort sizes, lift vert, snow condition, etc.

Okay boys here it goes: The better you are at carving the easier you can tighten or open up your carve in a fraction of a second if you need it - using an alpine, freeride OR freestyler! Ride _around_ them suckas!
It`s all about the hill: you take a different radius depending on the steepness of the hill.
Your radius is to big? Push harder. Turn your upper body further. You can do it. I know its work. Can`t get there? - Get a shorter board.
Your radius is to small? First of all: There is almost noch such thing! Anyways: If your board digs the nose in and you constantly have the feeling of "falling over the tip" - get a longer board or adjust your binding back further and wider.

rather than being caught.
I can answer your question then from my perspective as an "overtaking" rider who is in control. It`s of course my problem and my responsibility as previously discussed. In these circumstances I would like it if you could keep on exactly as you would have done if you didn`t know I was there. That way, I can predict where you`re going to be and the prediction works irrespective of if you have actually seen me or not.
In practice you`ll have to judge for yourself if the overtaking rider is competent, and decide then if you need to take avoiding action or not. You can generally tell by the way they`re riding, and even the sound their board makes on the snow.
Generally I try to avoid even appearing to be close to someone else`s track, so that they don`t feel worried. Sometimes feeling worried makes people fall over, which I don`t want. phil

to these "tight situations" the more freely you will ride. When I am down at the lift or any special tight point I slow down and start pointing with my fingers where I am going to go (not sticking my arm out ). I think that helps those "whatchout I`m really fast in this dangerous for everybody situation" people. Seriously people notice when you dominate the hill (in an sporty sense) or you are being chicken. They will force you of the road!

this a lot myself. Basically you are riding at a very high speed and doing a very laid out carve. You body, tilted against the centripedal force, is only a 1-2 feet above the ground. Most of the time you are actually riding directly across the slope in the middle of a high speed, high G turn. You are going so fast the minimum radius you can do is around 40 ft. As a result, most people who are going at a straight down the slope at a medium pace will be covering more vertical distance than you.
It`s really only doable by more advanced riders as you need to be 100% confident in your carving, because you will be going full speed at the edge of the trails - if you slip out of your turn, you will go flying into the trees. This obviously easier to do in bowls, where the "trails" are very, very large.
I also do the "loops" that Baka mentions... where you basically go fast enough to continue your carve up hill and complete a full circle (although my circles are more like the rollercoaster teardrops as I have to tighten my turn radius as I lose speed). I think they are called Vitelli turns or Eurocarves or something... not sure. Anyway, my friend Blake (awesome rider) taught me both the wide turns and the loops a few year back... I find it more fun than just swizzling down the slopes. Blake actually carve up a halfpipe and land uphill... it`s pretty weird because he`ll get to the bottom of the halfpipe... and then you`ll see him to like 3-4 extra hits on the bottom of the way... just going back and forth... a little lower each time, but he has to much speed and air that he can do it.
A photo of Blake (yoo can see the near halfpipe wall in the lower left corner): http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~husc/gallery/summer99/blake4web.jpg
Personally I don`t find complete beginners as problem as they don`t go down fast enough as you mentioned. My worries are of the intermediates who swizzle down the slopes don`t have the greatest situational awareness. They will have a lot of speed as they aren`t really turning or braking much as they go down, so if someone get in their way, they can avoid the first obstacle... but they don`t look to make sure their "detour path" isn`t heading right through someone elses line. Especially if that said someone is going really fast and directly across the slopes. While the "heavy carver" can tighten or widen their line a bit... it`s much harder to avoid someone because the "angle of attack" is so wide (the other person is crossing perpendicular to your path) so you need to make a much bigger course correction to avoid them than if you were both going "down" the slope. rather empty, if it`s crowded, I slow down and tighten my turns. Also, unlike what someone else mentioned I check uphill right before each turn (or maybe every other turn). It isn`t that annoying... it`s like checking you blindspot when you change lanes (I suppose some people don`t bother with this...) You are basically "traversing" the entire trail over and over again, so you need to take even more care to see that you aren`t cutting a downhiller off. I haven`t really collide with someone in a while... closest thing last season was a near miss at the edge of a trail - someone was jumped out from the woods and down into the trail (a small gully) at full speed. We managed to avoid each other... but he submarined his board into the powder and tumbled a bit. We traded some choice words after I made sure he was alright. Now am I being outrageous in believing that it isn`t my responsibilty to be looking for people coming in from behind, above, and out of the woods?

Hey Arvin (and anyone else for that matter), if you`re into carving Kirkwood, check out www.tahoecarvers.com , we have a bunch of guys that go there a lot, mostly from the Bay Area. A few of us were there Sunday in fact. The web site is new and we`ve just migrated the forum there from an old email list, and the pictures aren`t up yet, but hey, it`s carving